Talk:Otto Skorzeny

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Public Domain documents

President Clinton ordered thousands of documents to be declassified in 1998. A lot more about Skorzeny is now known:

In August 1944, top Nazi officials made in a secret reunion in Strasbourg, France. Skorzeny, Martin Bormann, Himmler, Kaltenbrunner, among others, were present. During this gathering, they created The ODESSA, organization of ex-members of the SS. ODESSA became a new brotherhood with guidelines and missions: To take out of Germany whatever they could of Nazi Loot, to use special routes called "The Rat Lines" safehaven houses, such as barns and monasteries where these officers could spend the night, while heading to Southern Italy or Greece and boarding a cargo ship. The ship would take them to a new home, most likely in South America.

Public Domain archives in NARA.

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I'm sorry, but that sounds like nonsense to me, for these reasons:

1. Germany and the SS were still very much fighting WW2 in August 1944, therefore there could not be any organization of "ex-members" of the SS formed at that time. Himmler at that time was trying to find a way to get Germany out of the war and save his neck.

2. Skorzeny was a Waffen-SS soldier, who probably never met Ernst Kaltenbrunner in his life, or would have had any desire to. If they did meet, it was only in passing.

Skorzeny writes in his autobiography "Geheimkommando Skorzeny" (first published in 1950) several occasions where he met Kaltenbrunner (not the least spending 5 days in the same prison cell in American captivity). He also mentions a meeting with these men but does not elaborate on the topic. Skorzeny and Kaltenbrunner where both Austrians, which S. makes a point of and which at the time was probably more important than we think today. 81.230.78.216 (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

3. When Skorzeny learned that Germany had surrendered, he immediately started looking for an Allied force to surrender to. He made no effort to flee, apparently not realizing what his reputation was among the Allies. In fact, the first two Allied patrols he met refused to take his surrender because they didn't believe Otto Skorzeny would just give himself up!

There is evidence that he was part of a network that helped Nazis escape justice after the war, but I wouldn't accept an American intelligence report from WW2 as gospel on Skorzeny's activities. After all, these are the ones who kept getting duped by him all through the war, and then put him on trial afterwards basically for making fools out of them. John

There's much more nonsense in this article. Skorzeny was never judged, but acquitted from any allegations for his wartime actions. Besides, he was not even a regular member of the Waffen SS, he was just a reservist. It is true that he helped members of the Waffen SS after the war, but the quotation marks are wrong. He helped them to escape justice.

To call the show trials after World War Two "Justice" is butchering the term entirely. 105.9.79.196 (talk) 12:07, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

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Wasn't Otto also involved in the capture of the Belgium fortress?

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No, Otto wasn't there.

Skorzeny became a soldier only after the Belgium fortresses were taken.

Chronology Problems

The article seems to say that Skorzeny's work with Peron and Nasser came after 1970. Nasser died in 1970. Skorzeny had a great deal to do with Nasser (and the Egyptian army) and Peron in the 1950s, and that should be part of this article. If my books weren't in storage, I'd write it up. Help, anyone? 66.241.73.241 08:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, Peron died in 1974. Mballen (talk) 23:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

"coffin draped in Nazi colours"

There are issues with this claim "His coffin was draped in the Nazi colours." in the Death section of the article. A video of his funeral is available on youtube, and it shows this claim to be spurious at best. The video (seen here [1]) shows a red-black-white ribbon adorning his coffin with the words "Ordensgemeinschaft der Ritterkreuzträger" (Association of Knight's Cross Recipients). You will also see later in the video, members of his procession carrying a wreath adorned with a ribbon in the Austrian colours immediately following his medal bearer. Seeing as there is easy misunderstanding of colours in this case to mean a military flag (as is often done at military funerals), I think it should be reworded to accurately represent the truth.

--47.55.7.119 (talk) 19:31, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I added an inline dispute tag in the article after "draped in the Nazi colours". SlightSmile 12:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Note that neither the source nor our text say "Nazi flag". Only "Nazi colours". The ribbon adorning his coffin has the same colours as the Nazi flag. So, unless the Ordensgemeinschaft der Ritterkreuzträger had those same colours independently of the Nazi colours (which I think is highly unlikely), our text is correct. It could be improved, though. Zero^talk 14:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

The issue is with the wording, not with the combination of different tinctures. "Colours" in a military context means a specific type of flag, saying his casket was draped in Nazi colours makes it sound like it was draped in a flag like one usually sees at a military funeral. Since the Association's ribbon takes their colours from the order's ribbon, it's slightly ludicrous to tie it to the swastika flag instead of the association it specifically states the ribbon represents. Note that the Knight's Cross was "denazified" after the war but maintained the same ribbon, to say they are the "nazi colours" is to conflate very different things. Would Feldgrau not also be a "nazi colour"? Would someone wearing a black suit be said to wear the SS colour?

The source also says in the same sentence that he was buried by his comrades, but the video clearly shows young students from his former Studentenverbindung being the pallbearers. It's fairly safe to say that this was journalistic creative writing rather than actual research into his funeral, since it only has one sentence in the whole article about it.

--47.55.7.119 (talk) 03:55, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree the wording is a bit odd, especially since the colours used were the same colours used by the Kaiserreich. Maybe colours should be changed to "flag". I'm aware that colours is often used to mean "flag" by native english speakers, but english wikipedia is used by the whole world, especially because he english wikipedia is the most neutral one. I'm sure many who read this think "nazi colours" means "black/white/red" which leads to misinformation.

While i'm at it. I'm a bit confused about using privately owned pictures on wikipedia. A relative of mine was attending Otto Skorzeny's funeral and i inherited these, many of the pictures show the coffin and flag used in colour. I'd be happy to provide one of those pictures to the article to help if it's possible. Thanks in advance ChartreuxCat (talk) 21:19, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Was it an actual flag or a ribbon on the coffin in the photos you have? The video I linked to only shows a ribbon with the aforementioned inscription.

As for using your own pictures, see Wikipedia:Image use policy. I'm sure your photos would be welcome and a useful addition to the article.

--47.55.7.119 (talk) 22:19, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Given no movement on this since August 2017, I went ahead and just removed the sentence. Its absence does not substantively hurt the article and its inclusion could be misleading. Feel free to re-add and clarify if you disagree/add sources. Buffs (talk) 18:40, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

A new book :

The Skorzeny Papers Evidence for the Plot to kill JFK

Ralph P. Ganis

(2018)

ISBN : 978-1-5107-0841-9

This book is based on Otto Skorzeny's archives.

According to the author (Ralph Ganis), there was a link between Otto Skorzeny and Guy Weber in Katanga. It may interest you to learn that Guy Weber was the assistant of SACEUR Lyman Lemnitzer (see "Operation Northwoods") when the SHAPE moved from France to Casteau in Belgium. Then Guy Weber worked for king Leopold III in Argenteuil. King Leopold III was a friend of Lyman Lemnitzer.

It should also be stressed Otto Skorzeny was a close friend of Leon Degrelle in Spain. The well-known terrorist Stefano delle Chiaie and Junio Valerio Borghese had to leave Italy after the Golpe Borghese ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golpe_Borghese ) and went to Spain where they met Otto Skorzeny and Leon Degrelle. They are most probably deeply implicated in "black terrorism" in Europe (together with SHAPE).

Also interesting to know that Otto Skorzeny met Dr. Lawrence Levy who created " Allied Research Associates Inc. " in 1961. Dr. Lawrence Levy worked with Lyman Lemnitzer (SHAPE). The main location of " Allied Research Associates Inc. " was " MECAR " in Belgium.

--193.191.186.78 (talk) 09:02, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Non-paywalled source

The Haaretz story is behind a paywall, but the same story was published in The Forward without a paywall.

https://forward.com/news/336943/ht/
The Nazi Who Became a Mossad Hitman
Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman
March 27, 2016

--Nbauman (talk) 18:35, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

No details on first wife

It's mentioned that he filed for divorce to marry Ilse, but no details of his first wife are given Smungospeglord (talk) 07:44, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

If you can bring some WP:RS about his first (?) wife, perhaps something can be added. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:05, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Secret ex-Nazi army in Africa

Pope Paul VI has:

In 2011, newly uncovered documents went up for auction and contained, among other items, proof that beginning in September 1950, while then serving as deputy of foreign affairs for the Vatican, Montini worked with former Nazis and members of the Spanish military in planning for a mercenary style army to operate within the African continent. Another revelation was a letter from the priest of former Nazi Lieutenant Colonel Otto Skorzeny to Montini in which the priest praised Montini's efforts to fund, harbour, and give safe passage to former Nazis evading Allied capture and punishment.

The source says:

In his catalog for the December 8-9 auction, Panagopulos writes: "Skorzeny entered Spain under an alias to begin a collaboration with Spain's top military leaders, ex-SS generals and officers, and even the highest levels of the Vatican to plan the formation of a secret army of ex-Nazis and Spanish military in Spain or North Africa, prepared at any time to counter a Russian attack from East Germany. This grouping of documents, directly from Skorzeny's estate, documents his efforts to form such an 'army in exile,' perhaps with even more sinister intent. Its contents have remained hidden for over sixty years, totally unknown to journalists and historians alike."

I don't know how trustable the auction house is, or what have later historians made of these documents, but if true, they are more relevant in this article than in the pope's. --Error (talk) 10:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

References

¿WWI?

During WWI he would have been of fighting age, yet nothing is even mentioned of that entire period. ¿Did he not serve? At very least a one-line section should be included to address this most puzzling question; He was so eager to serve in the second war, ¿why not the first? If nothing is known, addressing it as such should suffice. (I have no sources to cite here.) 69.10.163.44 (talk) 19:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Fighting age? Born 1908? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:41, 22 January 2024 (UTC)